It took a song about a ‘confused female friendship’ to bring ABC host Zan Rowe to tears

Over three seasons, big names in entertainment – Missy Higgins, Neil Finn, Bill Bailey, Noel Gallagher, Tori Amos, Lin-Manuel Miranda – have bared their souls on the ABC’s Take 5 with Zan Rowe.

Through five songs from the soundtracks to their lives, we have learnt about their loves, losses and what drives them. But host Zan Rowe has remained something of a mystery herself. This fourth season, with a dazzling line-up that she has, for the first time, personally curated, Rowe opens up as she is moved to tears while listening to Charli XCX’s Girl So Confusing, with New Zealand singer-songwriter Lorde, about whom the song is written.

“I generally don’t do that because I think my greatest strength as an interviewer is my ears. It’s listening. It’s not coming in with my own take on things,” says Rowe. “But the song is about this confused female friendship in the public eye where Charli XCX is saying, ‘I don’t know if you really like me. You say you want to hang out, but then you cancel’.

“It’s about the complex relationships that women have with each other, and the way that the industry still, to this day, pits women against one another. This song really spoke to me, having come up in the industry for 20 years as a music journalist. It really struck a chord. I couldn’t help but start crying because it affected me so much.”

There is a lyric in the remix, featuring Lorde, which takes Rowe to a dark place: “You walk like a bitch. Someone told me that when I was 10.”

“It’s devastating,” says Rowe. “It took me straight back to when I was 10 years old. I had lots of freckles and moles all over my arm – I was born with them – and this awful man across the road said to me, ‘Oh, you’ve been throwing stones in the dunny again’. So he’s basically telling me that I was sprayed with shit. It was really bullying and as an adult, I just think, ‘what kind of man says that to a little girl?’ It reminded me of all the ways that men have tried to push me into a corner, to try to push women, little girls, into a corner to control them and to keep them in their place.”

With Sydney comedian Aaron Chen, whom she interviewed in his adopted home city of New York, Rowe felt an affinity.

“He talked about his faith, his growing up in the church and leaving that for a while and going a bit wild in the comedy circuit, but then realising that he had lost his footing, that he needed grounding, and that he needed to find a larger purpose and return to the church,” she says.

“He’s quite devoutly Christian and this is something that I don’t think he’s spoken about before … I grew up in church as well, and my parents are religious. It wasn’t for me, but I absolutely respect their faith. They’re Christian people who don’t impose their faith on anyone. But I resonated with Chenny about having a grounding and a higher purpose, and also a sense of community.”

In London with Pulp frontman Jarvis Cocker, whom Rowe describes as “one of the shyest people I’ve ever met”, she was transported back to high school.

“I was forming my own identity… I was going out to a nightclub in Melbourne called Dream, and they had a Britpop night, and so I would be dancing to Common People every Saturday night in year 12, and then doing my homework. So it really does take me back.”

Although bypassed by the 1990s Spice Girls’ zeitgeist, Rowe adored meeting “Sporty Spice” Melanie Chisholm, who is coaching on Seven’s The Voice Australia.

“Mel has a fascinating story, similar to that of Jarvis,” says Rowe. “Mel grew up in a council flat in Liverpool, and there’s something about kids who grow up working class who work so hard and remain so down to earth. Mel was very open, and very happy to talk about the Spice Girls.”

Rowe’s conversation with Australian music legend Paul Kelly was a long time coming. She has been chasing him since the first season, having previously interviewed him for her original Triple J show of the same name, which was launched in 2006 and inspired by a BBC Radio concept.

“It’s always been about the right timing for having PK on the show, and this felt like a good year,” she says. “He’s just turned 70. He’s about to release his 30th album … He can be quite protective, but he shared things in this chat that I hadn’t heard from him before. He cried at one stage, which made me cry as well.”

It also took some “pretty hard hustling” to secure an interview with US actor Kevin Bacon, with help from his The Bondsman co-star, Australian actor, Damon Herriman. But it wasn’t the soundtrack to Bacon’s 1984 breakout movie Footloose that was the appeal.

“I only saw Footloose for the first time this year,” says Rowe. “One of the reasons I was so drawn to speaking with Kevin Bacon is that he’s got a huge following on social media. It’s one of the most positive, beautiful spaces, where he talks about the Monday blues, and posts about a record or a song that he loves … He’s been playing in a band with his brother for decades. So, I thought, ‘This is a perfect guy to ask to Take 5’, and I was right. He gave us so much of his story, which is bigger than just Hollywood. It’s bigger than music.”

When not in the Take 5 listening booth, Rowe unwinds with vinyl in the home she shares with her schoolteacher partner, Geoff, and their cat, Norman. “We often will put on a record when we’re cooking or eating dinner because there’s something about putting on a vinyl that’s more intentional,” she says. “It’s really lovely and it feels like a date … At home, I try to listen to music to enjoy it and to not critique it. Music’s always in my life, 24/7.”

Take 5 With Zan Rowe returns at 8.30pm on Tuesday, September 9, on the ABC.

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